The last time I was in Vegas I had beginners luck at the Craps table. I played only the pass line and the come line. Why would some casinos offer 10x odds and some offer only 2x odds? I don't think there is any advantage to either the house or the player with the rate of odds. The only difference I see is if you win with higher odds you would win more. If you lose with higher odds, you lose more. It seems to me that the house could let the player determine what rate of odds he or she would like to play. What am I missing here?? Why does the house set specific odds? Why can't you play any odds you want? Tom Casey

Line bets pay even money, and odds pay true odds on whatever the point number is.

If you had $10 on the pass line and $10 on the odds and you won, the front line $10 would get you just $10 while the $10 odds would get more than $10 (determined by what the point was)

If the point is 4 or 10, the odds are 2 to 1
If the point is 5 or 9, the odds are 3 to 2
If the point is 6 or 8, the odds are 6 to 5

Odds are the best bet on a craps table. It's teh only bet where the house has NO ADVANTAGE.

Tom,

This is a note from a guy who has never, not once in his life, won at craps, but...

Every time you make a pass or don't pass bet, you are a slight favorite to be a loser. Odds bets are EXACTLY even bets. So by increasing your amount of odds, you are by definition increasing your overall odds. That doesn't necessarily mean you should always bet the maximum odds, since you are still a slight underdog even with maximum odds. But if you had a big bankroll, it would make sense to take maximum odds.

Dave, I'm not a craps expert by any means, in fact, I'm not even a good craps player. I do love the game though.

You lost me on odds bets are EXACTLY even bets, and not always take max odds. I guess I disagree with the first one, and say that odds bets are MUCH more than even bets.

As for not taking max odds, I consider that to be kinda like telling a VP player to not put in a full 5 coins, except worse.

You know that old VP theory that if you can't afford to play max coins, go to a lower demonination game and load it up? Same thing applies to craps in JMT's little world. For example, if you are at a 10X odds $25 game and can't afford a $25 bet with $250 in odds, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you put $25 on the pass line and no odds. You would make much more money moving to a $2 table, and put $2 on the pass line and $20 in odds.

Okay, I don't have a book deal on craps, so my theories are not complete.<g> I love reading craps discussions, but since my knowledge is so weak, I don't really like being involved in the discussions.

I'd love to get some more input on this topic. Who is right? Is there a right answer? I have a computer game that instructs me to take the Maximum odds on the pass line and come line. So am I smarter to be at a $2 table that offers 10x odds and take these 10x odds or should I only take say 3x or 4x odds?? All comments appreciated. T.C.

Tom, your game is correct, "according to the book", but I disagree with the book.
As Joe said, always take the maximum odds. If that means playing at a $2 table in order to be able to afford to do so, then that's where you should play.
While the info on the come bet is correct according to the book, I feel that you have a better chance placing the 5-6-8-9. In order to win a come bet, the number must be rolled and then rolled again. If you place the 5-6-8-9, all you have to do is hit the number once in order to pay off. You can also take the place bets down at anytime. If I hit the 5 or 9, I take them both down. Same with the 6 and 8. Hit one of them, take down both numbers. This is boring and does limit your chances of taking advantage of a hot roller. I will leave them up if I am ahead and feel like taking some chances. I know that the pros say make the come bets, and you probably will have a chance to win more money that way, but you can get a whole lot of money on the table real fast and then lose it. This is just my strategy. BUT, always take full odds on the pass line bet. Like Joe said, if you don't it's just like not putting max coins into a slot machine.

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John
Moderator-Dining Forum




[This message has been edited by John (edited August 01, 1999).]

Tom, I think many of the differences might come from how much advantage is worth taking. I believe the Don't Pass Line has a slight advantage over the Pass Line, yet most people go with Pass, just to be in good company with other Pass Line players. OTOH, why would you intentionally play the Pass Line if you knew it was worse than the Don't Pass? Isn't the idea "to stack your advantages as high as possible against the casino"? BTW, Don't Pass players are often seen as bad karma and frowned upon by many players. I'm sure the casinos love that.

I think JMT and Dave are saying the same thing. The langueage I like is that you are getting TRUE odds on your odds bets.
The more money you can bet at TRUE odds, the lower you'll make the houses % advantage against you
This is a confusing concept.

jm

Hey JMT and others,

We play a lot of craps and you're absolutely correct to play the $2 table with max odds. The only problem is that casinos with $25 tables don't have $2 tables also. And at busy times they don't even have $5 tables.

Sams Town has 100x odds, but you have to bet $5 on the pass line. They raised it last Spring from $2. You can bet $2 but they'll only let you have 2x odds. Casino Royale has a similar deal. And Binions reduced their odds to 10X from 100x.

There's some other good deals like the Reserve (20x odds on a $2 bet, I believe) and the Union Plaza (10x odds on a $1 bet). And Main Street Station has, I believe, 10x on a $2 or $3 bet, I'm not sure which. We played all of those over 4th of July.

Ken in Libertyville, IL

Now that the pot is stirred up, aren't the place bets somewhat less than true odds payouts? If so, what are they?

Joe, you may be correct. I thought they were true odds bets, but they may not be. Maybe that's why the book says to place a come bet. I just place those numbers because they are easy to hit and then take them down.

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John
Moderator-Dining Forum

JMT,

I just reread my previous post and I don't understand it <g>.

Theoretically, it's always correct to take maximum odds, at least if you have an unlimited bankroll.

The odds that you get when you take maximum odds is **exactly* even money. In that sense, it is as good as a bet as anything in the casino except for positive-expectation video poker and blackjack with a very good count.

A pass bet is a losing bet. Not as bad as a roulette bet, but a definite losing proposition. So the more you invest in "even money" bets to counteract the "losing bet," the better.

It's easy to lose a lot of money very quickly when you take odds, so you have to be realistic about what your bankroll is.

02 .0278
03 .0556
04 .0833
05 .1111
06 .1389
07 .1667
08 .1389
09 .1111
10 .0833
11 .0556
12 .0278 and the total is 1.0000

The expected value on the pass line on the come out roll is .1667 + .0556 .2223.
After that you can divide the house advantage with each true odds bet. If you put one chip then it is divided by two. If you put out two chips then it is divided by three. I will post the odds Wed or Thurs but I am too tired to figure it out right now.



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Brad in Indiana

On the pass line with no odds the expected value is .9859. Below are expected values depending on the point.

Point none 1 x 2 x
04 or 10 .6667 .8333 .8889
05 or 09 .8000 .9000 .9333
06 or 08 .9091 .9545 .9697

On the don't pass with no odds the expected value is .9864. Below are the expected values depending on the point.

Point none 1 x 2 x
04 or 10 1.3333 1.1667 1.1111
05 or 09 1.2000 1.1000 1.0667
06 or 08 1.0909 1.0455 1.0303

Note: on the don't the expected value is greater than 1 once the point is set. By placing a true odds bet the play gives away part of his advantage to the house. The expected value of the come out roll for the don't player is .8889.




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Brad in Indiana

Yesterday I goofed on the expected value of the come out roll on the pass line.

It is 2 (your wager plus the win) x .2223 (the probability of rolling 7 or 11) + .6667 (the probability of seting a point = 1.1113.




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Brad in Indiana

Brad, I see a lot of big money don't players. They seem to do pretty well. After seeing your odds posts I can see where the advantage is.
Thanks.

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John
Moderator-Dining Forum