I ran into a fairly bizzare game of video poker at the Palace Station tonight. It's called Guaranteed Play, billed as "dozens of hands at one low price". You pay up front for X number of hands in a certain denomination and a certain type of game. You start at 0 credits and there is countdown meter of how many hands you have left. It always plays max coin which is 5. So if you lose the first hand, the credit meter reads -5. If you lose the second hand, the credit meter reads -10. If you lose the third hand it reads -15. If you win 25 on the next hand, the win meter will count up from that -15 through 0, up to 10. If you play you last hand and the credit meter is in the negative, you get nothing. If you play the last hand and there are credits showing, you win the value of that many coins. You can cash out at any time, and if you have any positive credits, you get paid accordingly but you forfeit any remaing hands.

So the particulars are as follows. It comes in 25 cent and dollar values. I took note of the quarter details. For $20, you get 75 hands of Bonus, Bonus Deluxe, DW, DWB, DDB, and JOB. Then there is the special where you get an additional 25 hands for playing DW, 50 additional hands for Bonus, and 75 additional hands for JOB. But if you want to pay $40 up front, you start out with 200 hands of the same games. Then you get 50 additional hands of DW or 100 extra for Bonus. The JOB game gets 200 additional hands.

To the curious, there is alot of math involved to figure this one out first. For me, the first thing that hit me is, "this is a Stations casino, home of the bad odds gimmicks." The second thing that hit me was that if someone went to this much trouble to figure this stuff out, you know the house edge is solid. Third, the paytables on all of the games were less than one might want. Then I did simple math whereas 100 hands equals $125 of coin through. Then I thought $500 of coin through for $40 might sound interesting to some. Then I thought that if you hit one big hand somewhat early, you could take the money and run, but why if there are X number of hands just waiting there to be played. As long as you can cash out at any time, what are you losing? Then I thought, "what if you were getting down to less than 50 hands left and your credit meter was -100, would your strategy change?

Then the realization hit me like a ton of bricks. Out of all the people that are in the casino playing gimmick games, why is nobody playing this bank of machines? I guess locals aren't that stupid.

JMT,
I'm not a local (as you know), but for a $40 investment. I would have given it a whirl. I'm sure stations has a big edge (as they do on all the gimick machines) but I still would have to try it for myself. And that is where they are crazy like a fox. Between people like me and people that just see play time and then add that to all the new people trying video poker at the entry level, they will get play. I don't think this kind of game is going to be for the good of VP in general, but to some this game will look good, after all, the slots can be most unkind at times, and at least here you get to play. M2C

We tried it when we first saw it a few weeks ago, but just invested $20. We hit 4 Aces with a kicker so it panned out for us......... paytables aren't great, but we had fun ONCE. Have now received a mailing where we can play it for "up to $100" for free........we haven't called yet, but probably will.

WTG, Tater! This sounds like a gimmick I'd enjoy trying.

I got a mailing offer to play them too. It's in a big stack of junk that will probably expire before I get to it.

One of my gambling theories is that the machines have more than paytables, they have odds too. The worst VP machine in town, has the same chance of Aces or a Royal as a full pay machine. Just because I play X number of hands and think the odds are against me hitting a certain hand, the machines odds might be ripe for a win.

Anyone still have the Bob Dancer program on their computer? I bet it wouldn't take long to play $20 through and see how many hands one averaged playing full coin in.

I don't even know if that is relevant doug. The big part of the gimmick is that you put your initial money in and never get it back. In real VP, you start playing and if you don't like the way it's going, you can cash out and settle your losses at that point. Here, you can stop at any time and all you get back is winnings that are above and beyond what you have played. Even you think you are ahead $10, you are still in the hole from whatever you put in, minus $10.

I've seen a few people playing now. All were 100 credits or more in the hole. Some 300 or more credits in the hole. Not only do they need a 4 of a kind to get out of the hole, they need a couple more to recoup their investment so that they can start winning.

Of course luck can salvage any horror story. I'm sure there are royal flushes hit in Harrahs every day. That alone does not justify quality video poker games in the casino. So if you are in Stations and playing that gimmick, 4 deuces oughta bail you out, aces w/kicker would do it, etc. Still, to the wise player, the same good hand would almost always net more in a real game.

That's an intriguing question, Doug. My problem is that it would be flawed logic to draw conclusions from just a few hands, and even retired folks don't have the time to play thousands of simulations<g>.

I tried this game before our meet at GVR .. plunked down my $20 and did 100 games on Deuces. I was in the hole 10-40 credits until the last 20 hands when I managed to build my credits up to the point that I cashed out with $8.50 and had some fun. LOL, that's a loss of $11.50, but it was also $8.50 that I wouldn't have kept in most other machines since I seldom walk away from a machine without playing the $20 through to the end.

The way I see it, you can play the best/worst games, the best/worst odds, the ripe/cold machine, and it still comes down to luck for the short-timer -- and that's a category we all fall into IMHO.

I never had the time at GVR to play these, but I would have. However, I think JMT is on to something, with a randomness of the play. This whole thing doesn't set well with me, and something smells afowl here.
I'm not saying you can't win, all I'm saying is I don't think your seeing the true odds as they apear on the paytable glass as in normal VP games.
BTW, I feel the same way about spin poker as well.

We did go and play our "free" money. We each got $40 to play. The machines did have the odds posted, and unlike the earlier ones we saw, these had a choice of playing "normally" with one hand at a time, or using the guaranteed play.
I won $55, and could have cashed out with a higher win, but I chose (greedy me) to keep going until the last hand. Toby cashed out $40, also playing all of the hands through. We were happy, and took our "free" money and ran..... There were about 100 people playing at the time we went. We had to make an appointment and had to appear at the showroom at 3:00pm. There were drinks and snacks for us, and we had to watch a movie to "Learn" how to use these machines. You can cash out at any time, but then you lose the rest of the hands that you "contracted" for. This is only on the guaranteed side. The other side of the machine choice was the traditional one hand at a time. The paytables were the same. Some of our fellow players didn't win a dime, some won more than we did...............all sort of like real life. We had fun anyway.

I think you just pointed out the false justification that this game presents. You started with $40 free. That became an investment. Toby cashed out at $40, which is even. If you cashed out at $55, that is only a $15 win. If you cashed out at $95, then that's a $55 win.

Fun is fun. Luck is luck. If you decide to throw your money at that game, good for you. Entertainment is in the eye of the player. For anyone utilizing even a smudge of gambling sense, it is a gimmick that raises the bar on Stations gimmicks.

As for the normal/traditional side. Since most (if not all) Stations have 100% VP games, it is clearly an inferior paytable. I did see some advantages in them. They are generally new or newer machines, so they are cleaner. The paytables aren't terrible based on Stations standards. And those machines aren't generally crowded, which reduces the chances for an undesirable seat mate.

Gee, I wished I'd asked you first, I thought we were having fun AND walking away with some cash we didn't have when we walked in!

I'm glad that's settled. Perhaps we can get back to strategy, odds, level of gimmick, theories, and other questions this game poses.

I'm curious, Tater. Did they just hand you the $40 with the option of leaving at that point?

I think Gamblin Tater took advantage of very good odds, you really couldn't loose, just break even. Not too shabby! Those are the kinds of odds we'd all like a session of, in any casino.
I still will try these, even though I have my own personal doubts. It sounds like a challenge to see if I can beat the thing. LOL

JMT, Tater, or anyone, are these machines in all the Stations casinos????

I've seen them at the 3 Stations I have been to since I first saw them at OJ Station.

I've seen them at Texas, Red Rock and Santa Fe.
Sorry, Daisy, no........they came around and PUT the money in our machines. I think we could have cashed it out at that point, but heck, how could you hit a Royal that way?!?!?
Lee, I think you'd have fun. What other game can you be 300 credits in the hole when you just put in a $20, and still have a chance at hitting a big payoff?