Many economists say that we have hit the bottom and are now heading into more better times ......

BUT.....

I take somewhat of a different view when it comes to the economic situation in Las Vegas.

Under the present circumstances it's going to be a very long haul before we ever get back to how things were three to four years ago.

And it ain't gonna be over until "THE FAT LADY SINGS"!

But in this case here in Las Vegas, that FAT LADY takes many shapes and sizes.

From where I sit, that Fat Lady in Las Vegas is/are the following things and circumstances and we ain't gonna be seeing daylight until she finishes her final number.

Feel free to add a few of your own. Believe me when I say that some casino executives with the power to lead that lady to her final bow read this stuff we post here on TalkVegas.com and sometimes give it serious consideration.....

First of all ..... the casinos have got to change their modus operandi.

Cancel those unfair 6-5 Blackjack games and act more like a family operation rather than a mis-behaved, corporate sibling.

Why make rules that irritate people? Why make rules that will send them someplace else?

That fat lady won't leave until these casinos offer a chance to win just even a little bit of money.

In the good old days the casino owners did give those customers a close to even break with fair and balanced pay-off and made every effort to show their face on the casino floor.

It wasn't unusual to see Benny Binion walk up and down the isles passing out rolls of nickels with a hearty handshake and a robust "Thanks and good Luck, folks!"

The last time I saw that happen was years ago when Mike Gaughan gave me a free steak dinner for two while I was playing a penny machine just because he appreciated his customers. Even those on the penny machines playing nine-cents a spin.

All that and so much more has disappeared and the fat lady will never leave until someone who is somebody comes on the casino floor and says, "Thanks for coming back! Here - have a beer or a cup of coffee. All our tables now pay 3-2. And our roulette tables are European style. We do appreciate your business and we want you to return!"

These corporate giants need a figurehead to step in those Binion shows and follow in his foot-steps. Someone who shows up on the casino floor and makes us feel like welcomed customers instead of welcomed suckers.

I don't see the Fat Lady finishing her final number until the above and many other malpractices have seen their final curtain.

It's gonna take more that previous years to get them back through those casino doors and fairer games to get their wallets out.

If you want to see some other changes that will help pull LV out of the deepest hole it has ever been in, feel free to add them here.

ANd believe me, folks .... that there hole is far deeper than many of us realize.

I'm with you. The numbers there talking about are not realistic. First they don't count unemployed people who gave up looking for work so that real rate is closer to 14%. However, as soon as the jobless numbers goes down a smidgeon, somwone is quick to jump on that as 'Wow were out of the worst of it'. I don't think so.

Vegas faces the same situation as the rest of America: how are new jobs going to be created (not hand outs) and who is going to pay for all this debt. People still aren't spending money freely and that includes Vegas.


We were looking at coming there possibly this summer but right now everything is spendy. The casinos haven't dropped prices to lure back people like me but rather have entrenched themselves in keeping prices high as a survival means.

I hope that you are right will, I really do. I don't really see it happening. The casinos are run by the investors, not the visionaries.

I was sorta hoping that Phil Ruffin was our knight in shining armor. He is an independent thinker. He is slowly taking the Wynn, MGM, and Mirage out of TI. Michael Gaughn has always been a locals casino guy.

If by chance, you are wrong, what do you think will happen? Las Vegas is not known for returning to the good ole days. Las Vegas constantly reinvents itself. Gaming has declined much faster than the visitor count, meaning the people are coming, but they aren't putting money in the machines or on the tables. Shows are cutting back to embarrassing levels. Restaurants are doing all they can to eliminate the overweight problem of this country by reducing portions. The nightclub scene is falling fast as "daddys credit cards" become worthless.

I see a lot of potential in the wings. There is excellent talent looking for jobs in shows. There are very talented service people looking for a job. There are great chefs doing anything they can to scratch out a living. There are lots of venues for stores, shops, food, beverage, and entertainment. AS you mentioned, gaming is just a high level decision on what direction it can take.

Assuming Las Vegas moves forward, what do you see in the future?

WOW! Good question, JMT!

Vegas is a one-horse town (gambling) with not too much of anything else to drive it into the future; so I personally don't see it moving forward too very much within the next ten years, unless some foreign investors recover before the US guys and buy up the whole darn town.

I've seen that happen in Hawaii over the years and now the US locals there are having financial difficulties. It's far-fetched but that could also happen here in Las Vegas within the next 20 years or so.

And I don't think that any of these LV high rise condominiums will "move forward" within the next ten to twenty years either. There are just too darn many other more reasonable options in today's housing market.

And those who purchased CityCenter units with the intent to make a profit by renting them through some in-house rental agents, might be in for a big surprise when and if they receive their portion of that month's rental income check. This is a possible eventuality even with that 30% discount that they have been offered.

Throughout the history of LV the casinos and their patrons have determined the direction in which the local economy turns, but those patrons are now learning that it is best to hold on to their source of livelihood rather than to risk it at a Craps table and the casinos themselves don't seem to have a handle on the problem.

If I had a hand in running this town, I'd start trolling for large scale industries that do business in other states and make then an offer that they can't refuse to relocate in LV.

My first target would be Hollywood's movie industry with some limitations placed on the unions that would be involved so that LV could keep the business Local rather than losing it to Mexico or Canada or any other location that appreciates their business more than we do.

Make an offer and they will come - should be something that we should be doing at this very moment.

If some things like the above do not take place, I forcast Las Vegas stagnation for the next ten to twenty years.

And on the good side - that just might solve our ever present water supply problem!

to late will-ya missed boeing!! one other thing to get out of your mind the town will NEVER be what it was and if you think 3-2 blackjack is going to solve the problems you are wrong.you are right in asking the casinos to kiss a little ass to get my dollars back.the problem is that they owe so much money that they can't give you 3-2 blackjack.they do give you cheap food,i'll bet the locals just about eat for free.the real problem is not vegas but the poor guy that ain't working in where ever he lives isn't coming to vegas three times a year and when he does come he is a penny slot player and not at the 25 minimum blackjack table.as one ceo said-we spent money like a drunken sailor,it will never happen again.

I am speaking in generalities but here's another thing.
In this day and age there are casinos almost anywhere you go. People can get their gambling fix within an hours drive pretty well anywhere.
Once inside they basically all look the same with the same machines as you will see in any other casino. Not that long ago if you lived here in southern ontario it was the norm to book a trip to Vegas when you wanted your gambling fix but now there are four full casinos and two race track casinos (slots only) within 40 minutes from where I live.
When I was growing up Vegas was a destination to go to where you could do something that was illegal and had a real mystique about it. I do not go to Las Vegas because I can gamble. Hell I do worse there than I do at home and usually lose money before I even get there with the exchange. I go because I love the vibe, the city (there is more to vegas than the strip or downtown) and the surrounding areas.
Gambling may have been my original reason to go but it is not what keeps me going back. If gambling is the hook then they should start using better bait and give the gambler a perceived better chance than they can get at their own pond back home. Just my own 2c worth.

from todays news-consumer spending falls in september,incomes flat. that means they ain't running to the airport to take a vacation and go gamble money they don't have.

This town is anxious to see how and if the opening of CityCenter brings more people in and if those people will add to the gambling take.

In the past every grand opening of every major hotel (and some not so major ones) helped drive up the casino profits.

It's going to be very interesting to see what affect this new development will have on the LV long term and short term economic situation.

Some say it is going to be most helpful while others say that it will just pull the gamblers from the other high end casinos so that nothing will change except that some of those high end units will suffer more than they are presently hurting.

Interesting to note in today's LVRJ ......... the hotels are experiencing increased hotel room damage due to the actions of the lower-class of people that are taking advantage of these lower hotel room rates.

Things that make you go Hmmmm!

This is my opinion and mine only....

Vegas will not go back to "the good old days" they can't. It's the same reason a large business that grew from a small one, can't just go back to it's roots and become small and profitable again. The debt these casino have is monstrous! Heck casinos are having trouble making min. payments on loans now.
Ok, I'm self employed, my personal gross business is off by about 30%, (i am not sure how much is because of weather or trouble times) but it's off 30%. For most it is a very difficult position, any company in any business, that has debt, is really having a tough go of it. Many won't make it!
The casinos that have low debt will do ok, but those that have massive amounts of debt are in serious trouble. Now think who isn't up to there eye sockets in debt on the list of casino corps? They spent like there would never be a bottom, and it was all driven by stiff competition.
I do not have a great 10yr rebound outlook for Las Vegas. These are tough times, and they teach a lesson, a very hard lesson.
As for me and my Vegas trips, November will be our 2nd trip to Vegas this year (down from 6 last year). Between putting more hours in at work, and some new recreational spending, we have really cut back. I don't see my trips to Vegas ever becoming 6 times a year again, and it has nothing to do with my income status. Travel in general is becoming more and more of a hassle. I no longer look forward to the long flights, the whole mess of getting to and from the airports, rental cars, even making the reservations. I wonder how many others are in this same boat?
Travel in general is just not that attractive to me as it once was.
I see the great cheap steak dinners going the way of the horse drawn cart too. Someone is going to pay for all of this mess, and the end result is going to be higher prices, and more taxes.
With all this said, GOSH I hope I'm wrong!
Lee-PA

Lee, I do not think you are wrong, I do think you have your eyes wide open - sorry to hear that your business is down somewhat, however, you have a good head on your shoulders and I have no doubt that you will make it though all of this mess just fine. There was an article in our local paper this morning where airlines that have cut flights are really packing people in on the remaining flights and charging whatever they can get away with. I definately have a shortage of Vegas trips this year, but hope to make up for it next year. (Maybe we can cross paths sometime next year and I am anxious to read your report on your Thanksgiving meal in the Prime Rib Loft this year)

Lee! Well stated! Thanks.

As I sort of stated earlier, many people make repeat trips to Las Vegas just to see the latest hotel/casino development and we'll soon see if the soon to open CityCenter carries on with that 'tradition'.

But after that grand opening, wot happens!?

Boyd's Echelon project at the northern end of the Strip has been put on hold once again (possibly until 2014 - 2015) and I don't foresee anything of interest opening up along the Strip corridor other than the CityCenter unless something is done about the Fountainbleau before then.

Well said Lee. That is it in a nutshell. Again I have to believe the flood of casinos that have popped up in nearly every state and province does have a huge negative on travel to Vegas as well.

Okay, how about this angle? NOBODY has ever been right about the future as Las Vegas constantly reinvents itself.

From the farms, the Mormons, the railroad, the block 16 antics, the wire services, the mob, or Hollywood.

In more recent times, the individual owners didn't see Wall St coming. When the Excalibur was built and we thought 1 kiddie casino was enough, then comes the playgrounds of MGM which are now gone. When the Mirage was built, there were too many rooms and no way it could make a profit. Remember when we thought the town could not support 2 Cirque shows? Remember when the Venetian was the final straw for the glut of hotel rooms? The list just goes on and on.

There are no rules on what Las Vegas will become. I don't know if there will be gambling as we know it today. I don't know if the management structure will remain the same. I don't know if the shows will be the same. I don't know if top of the line restaurants will pop out all over each property. I don't know what we will do for entertainment. I don't think anyone has that vision just yet.

If you live on memories and long for the past, the outlook is gloomy. I think there's a 50/50 chance of a speedier and more powerful recovery than the rest of the nation. And I like those odds.

Curious, Is everyone getting more free room offers then ever before? I am.

I think that says a lot about where Vegas is.
Here is a short list of what i got the past 7 days

Harrahs properties
2 nights with free tournament

Jerry Seinfeld tickets + 2 nights free

Venetian
2 to 4 free nights with $25 slot credits

Main Street
4 nights, food and $75 in slot dollars

4 nights, food and $100 in slot dollars (selected stays)

Aliante ststion
3 free nights

slot tournament

Plaza
3 nights w/new years party

Planet Hollywood
3 nights, $75 in slot dollars, $25 resort credit, free spa entry

Green Valley Ranch
2 nights free, 30% of spa, $50 slot dollars, $50 dinning credit

M resort
2 nights and $20 voucher for slots, $50 resort credit

JMT, well said, but I strongly disagree.

This town is hurting more than most of us know and in my humble opinion will not reach the heights it hit four to five years back until many of us have kicked the bucket.

The days of Binion, Gaughn, and even Boyd are past and more than likely will never be seen again .... unless these hotel casinos see the benefits of days gone by and start acting like good guys instead of "one armed bandits".

Actually the casinos are not really that bad but they are going to have to do something GOOD to get them back on track.

millions of people have lost thier homes,millions of people have lost thier jobs the last thing they going to do is jump on a plane and go to vegas,not even for free!!

Wow dag, is that really the way you see it?

arrivals down about 25%,spending down,dads credit card is maxed.sorry going to take more than a roll of nickles and a free room to fill up the town.general sales are down 20% in washington which generates the sales tax to run towns and schools.budget cuts have been ugly.unemployment rate in nevada is? people just don't have the money to go on vacation.yep that's the way i see it.holiday shopping will be a good gauge to how the econ is doing and the prediction is upbeat,i sure hope so.

You obviously did your homework on numbers. I'm not sure how you translate it into people flying to Las Vegas.

I admit that I don't spend much time watching news on the economy. The media didn't predict the collapse, so I have no confidence in them predicting the recovery.

However I spend a lot of time in the city. I spend a lot of time at the resorts. I spend a lot of time at the airport. And I can see exactly how many flights there are and how many people are on each flight. I don't tally the numbers but I know a good day from a bad day.

Of the people responding on this thread, their trips are down or nonexistent this year. Nobody has cited loss of job or home. I'm the only one I know of on this board that is losing my house.

Last I heard casino numbers are down a little more than 10%. Is it possible that for each million you cite as losing everything and not coming to town that a different million are making the trip (minus that 10%) or is this theory flawed? After all, millions will die and not make the trip, millions will get pregnant and not make the trip, millions will visit other casinos, millions will find other interests, etc.

I don't deny that times are tough all over. I don't deny entertainment budgets are way down. OTOH, millions of people are coming to this town, the sky is not falling, and the prime rib tastes as good as ever.

Somehow I see your economic news as one story and the status of Las Vegas as a separate story. I think the Las Vegas public economic climate is different than the heartland of America. And I think the business end economic climate is different than mainstream America.

The only part I see as maybe flawed in DAGs numbers, is "who is coming to vegas". I mean, people coming with a gambling budget of $50 isn't Vegas's bread and butter any way. If the fringe people stop coming, the casinos arn't taking a big hit as I see it. But when the middle people, the mid-range players like me cut back, in mass, it hurts bad! Just like all those conventions that cut back, one or 2 no problem, in mass, it's a concern for Vegas.
I see them working hard to entice me out to Vegas, with lots of free stuff and free rooms. Hey, it's working, for me!
I think there are some people that may not have gotten burned by the economy, but are very wary about dropping 5K or more, on a gambling vacation.
I also don't see a lot of advertising dollars being spent, to entice new customers either. Can't recall the last Vegas commercial I have seen on TV.
Here is something else I have noticed, my gambling customers. That is my customers I know gamble (from various conversations). Are not talking about their latest trip to AC or an upcoming trip to Vegas or Reno either. Some of that could be, because right now it's not in vogue to spend money like that, or they just cut back? Not sure, but they ain't talking!