In recent months, more than two dozen tables paying 6-5 for blackjacks have surfaced in Las Vegas, in some cases replacing games that paid the traditional 3-2.

Folks, YOU are being ripped off regardless of the "advantages" they claim to be giving YOU - such as lower minimums.

I am surprised that the Gaming Commission is allowing this.

They allow slot machines.

Remember, that slot machines are there to make money. They aren't loss leaders. Even if you have a favorite machine that always pays you well, not only do some people have to lose to pay for your winnings, other people lose to pay for the machine, the real estate it sits on, the day to day maintenance, as well as the research and development that brought this game to the casino floor. And if you've ever seen the research to see which games make it or don't make it, you know it is an expensive process.

I used to think some gamblers were making really poor choices. But it's their money, it's their choice, it's their entertainment, it's their moment. As long as I'm not paying, I can't tell them what to do. And it keeps me from paying income tax.

My advice, when you see someone playing a losing game, smile. When someone asks for your opinion on a game, you'll be ready.

They also allow "prop" bets on the crap table, I see 'em betting the "props" all the time. Oh well it keeps the crap tables in business so I can still bet the DP/DC and walk away with a smile and handful of their chips.

And they were at GVR again today, betting $50 a whack on the prop bets, so one or two did hit, but by the time you figure in the losing prop bets they made I doubt they came out ahead.

In the mean time my DP/DC strategy paid off again and I walked away from the table with $335 of their money. That was a $600 buy in and cashing out 50 minutes later for $935.

This whole issue of game choice is probably more complex than it seems.

A large part of it is opportunity cost. For those visiting Las Vegas and staying on the strip the effort, time and cost of getting to a place with better games may not be the truly economic decision if they are playing for relatively low stakes with a relatively small bankroll.

Part of it is that the hub-bub around the normal crowded craps table is probably intimidating to irregular gamblers. Some people find the dealers for blackjack to be scary.

On the other hand, as Joe points out, they invest a lot of research in developing video slots that people extract entertainment value as well as gambling opportunity.

This all said, there still are some basically dumb gamblers. The most obvious are the VP players that do not play full coin. The same for people playing big jackpot progressives like Megabucks and are blithely putting in one coin at a time with no chance to win the big pot. While I am normally pretty good at minding my own business, I am tempted every so often to ask if they realize what they are doing.

Update: More and more Las Vegas casinos are now paying 6-5 or even money when you get a blackjack.

In fact, within a few months you won't be able to find a casino that pays 3-2.

A lot of the local and knowledgeable blackjack players are complaining but it seems to have no affect because the relatively new players don't seem to know better or just don't give a darn because they go into the game expecting to lose anyway.

If you don't like what the casinos are doing to the game of blackjack, the following recommendation is offered by an avid blackjack player who knows the game....

Reducing blackjack payouts from 3:2 to 6:5 adds a substantial 1.39% to the casino's advantage.

What can you do to help blackjack return to the ways its always been played until recently?

Don't play any blackjack game that pays less than 3:2 for a blackjack.

Warn your friends and family if they're headed to the casino.

Let the casino floorperson at your favorite casino know that you hate to see the casino floor filled with misleading games instead of real blackjack.

If you have a casino host, let them know your displeasure as well.

If players don't stop supporting these games, it's just a matter of time before the casinos remove all the real blackjack games.

Thanks for listening.

Are they doing this across the board or only on the low limit tables? If so, it is just a pure economic calculation on how much revenue per square foot they are generating. It would not be some philosophical idea on how much hold blackjack should generate.

Certainly an effective boycott would tend to make the management rethink the concept.

Another idea might be to find out who the advertising agency for one of the big casino operations and send them the idea that they could sell "real blackjack". Times are hard and I would think that any competitive advantage would be valued.

Writing campaign to the various media also might stir up somebody with a big forum to take up the cause.

I would think that there have to be others in Vegas that feel the way you do. Would there be any grass roots pressure groups? I notice in the papers that there is a moderate amount of agitation for higher gaming taxes. Something like "Citizens for Real Blackjack" could make the finance people of the casinos sweat a little.

the only thing that the finance people sweat is how they are going to make the payment on the note that is due.they don't even know what 6/5 is. citizens for real blackjack? keep us informed on when the pickets go up. most people play the game because they enjoy playing the game

GOOD STUFF, E&E!

But I'm not a Crusader by any means.

I just like to complain loudly when I see any casino taking advantage of a customer's 'stupidity".

I say 'stupidy' NOT to offend, but as an attempt to honestly express what I have been observing lately.

The majority of these new and very young players have no idea that a blackjack SHOULD pay 3 to 2! And as a result of that, they are content with 6 -5 or even money.

And the 'house' takes full advantage of that stupidity and the game of blackjack is changing all over town.

And it does appear that they are calling it something else ..... Super-Fun, Lucky Aces, etc. with often idiotic side bets.

I'm not positive but just maybe the casinos have to call the game of blackjack something else when they don't pay 3 to 2.

Maybe it would be more polite to use the word "ignorance" instead of 'stupidity' in an effort to be less offensive here but ..... I think you got the idea! No one on this TalkVegas board is actually really stupid. (I thunk!)

so will, what games are you playing these days.that you aren't being ripped off?

The government of Nevada lives off of gambling taxes and sales taxes.
The articles I have seen say that the unwashed masses would highly prefer to raise mining and gambling taxes rather than sales taxes or have an income tax.

In that climate the casinos do not need agitators running around claiming that they are cheating the honest gaming public.

The finance boys will notice when they do the forecast with 27% tax load instead of 17%

IMPO,
Look, the way I see it in very simple terms is the casino needs X amount of cash to keep making payments on their notes. If they don't raise rev, on BJ, they will get it somewhere else. So, maybe they take a little more out of the slot players pocket, or change the paytables on all the VP machines, or maybe stop comping so many rooms, or maybe, just maybe, that resort tax will resurface?
I play very little BJ anymore, I wouldn't care if I never play again.
Playing is a choice, The new paytables on BJ are nothing new. They are screwing with paytables on VP all the freaking time. My question is, why do you think BJ should be exempt from tinkering or tweeking of the paytables? They have not changed the rules of the game, only the paytable. It's not like they are saying only red queens and the ace of spades quailify for a blackjack!
Summery, I vote with my wallet everytime I buy tooth paste, organic peaches, or red meat. We all do. weather or not these choices are the smartest money wise or health wise, or time wise. The answer to the fuel shortage is driving less and more eco friendly cars, and public transportation. The trick is, to get people to change their ways, good luck with that. Even when it was $4.00 a gallon, I was still paying, did anyone stop driving?
OK, I do admit, I may see things a little differntly then some or even most, but I would never call anyone here stupid or dumb or ignorant for that matter, because of a choice they made about spending quality time in a casino. It is entertainment for a great deal of us, we are not looking for a second income. It's an escape into a world where there is a slight chance of coming off a vacation with more money in your pocket then you started with. But deep down, we all know, who pays the bills of those big Las vegas Casinos, don't we? Or do we really have our heads that far up our,.....do we really have our heads in the sand that deep?
Of my soap box now, LOL

Thanks, Lee., but I disagree entirely with the majority of what you say above.

I don't have the time to respond to all you've stated, but I have to defend or correct myself a bit here regarding calling anyone here stupid or dumb or ignorant for that matter.

I'll graciously and respectfully retract the words "dumb" and "stupid", but I will not retract "ignorant"because every time I visit a casino and see even money or 6-5 blackjack payoffs, I soon discover that the majority of these players have no idea that a real blackjack traditionally pays 3 - 2.

And as far as I am concerned that is "ignorance".

And I might even go as far as this .......

Once a blackjack player knows that casinos "used to pay" 3 -2 (and some casinos still do) and that player elects to sit at a table that pays even money or 6-5, that player is no longer ignorant .... rather he's just plain stupid.

Is a person considered smart when he pays $4 for a gallon of gas when he can get that same gallon of gas across the street for $3.50.

Or is it just plain stupid to judge an individual's intelligence by the price he pays for a gallon of gas? Or the casino he elects to play blackjack in?

It appears that 'ignorant' people set the 'trends' for gambling payoffs within casinos. More and more players are accepting even money or 6-5 blackjack payoffs even to the point where the tables are full on many occasions.

The casinos realize that these new players don't have a clue about 3-2 so they proceed to pay us less than war we're due and all us BJ players suffer in the process.

I have never or will I ever call someone stupid or dumb for playing less then perfect VP, or for playing 5/7 JOB. I just don't see the point.

BTW, better reread YOUR topic heading!

It's one of the reasons I kept from even replying to this thread in the first place.

I can throw fire with the best of them, but refuse to by choice.

You have every right to your opinions here, and you are very welcome to share them, (I normally enjoy most of your posts too).

Like I stated earlier, vote with your wallet. You want better quailty meat, stop buying the cheap stuff. You want better furnace and Air Conditioner, maybe going with the cheapest bidder isn't the best way to get that done. If enough people all come to the same conclusion as you, change will happen, it must.

I do wish you luck on your crusade, Hey maybe while your at it, you can get that double zero off all the roulette wheels, and bring Faro back too!

Play craps...The casinos have not screwed with the payoffs on that game. They do change the amount of odds you can place/lay but the odds are still paid off at true odds.

Oh and Baccarat too, I haven't seen any change in the payout on that game either. The standard 5% vig on winning Bank hands still applies as it has for decades.

Lee, you and I would never see eye to eye on this subject but let me put it this way in response to a bit of what you state above.

You state that you would never call someone stupid or dumb for playing less then perfect VP, but I would say that that very same person is not playing 'smartly' if that person was aware of how to play VP perfectly.

I think that the words 'stupid' and 'dumb' have been offensive to some of us, so let me use the term "not playing smartly" in an attempt to smooth down the feathers.

To many people a person who knows how to play to the best of his advantage but does not play to the best of his advantage, it simply means that he is not playing 'smartly'.

I actually do not mean that that person has any lack of intelligence regarding the important aspects of living, but he/she lacks that intelligence when it comes to playing certain games of chance.

Maybe a better title for this topic would be, "I See People Playing 'Dumbly' !"

Thanks for participating in this discussion everyone.

By the way,

Sam's Town used to offer Roulette with one "0" which reduced the House Percentage down to 2.5% if I recall correctly.

I don't know if it's still there but I recall playing that wheel upstairs on the 2nd floor maybe 10 years or so ago.

Cajun, the only change in Baccarat over the years has been the minimum 'bet' and the fact that the casinos no longer play with real live, crisp $10's or $100's nor the use of a big paddle to move that cash around.

Back then Baccarat players wore formal wear exclusively and seldom mingled with the 'little people'.

When the MGM Grand first opened they used large and very fancy mother-of-pearl or beautiful green jade "chips".

And those 'chips' were masterfully moved around the board with very impressive looking paddles by staff appropriately dressed and manacured,

A similar 'set-up' was seen at the high end roulette tables.

Las Vegas has sure changed since them good old days.

I got a question will. Why is your focus on Blackjack? You seem to understand it's not the only game that has changed.

JMT, Sorry but I don't understand your question.

JMT, sorry to be late with this response but I just reread your question and will take a stab at an answer.

As far as I am aware, blackjack is the only casino game that has recently changed in an effort to decrease the Player's advantage.

By a casino's refusal to pay 3-2 for a blackjack, the House Percentage is raised considerably. I'm sorry that I don't have that figure at my fingertips but I'll do my best to find it or compute it if no one comes to my assistance here.

To the best of my knowledge .... The only other casino "game" that the casinos could tamper with to raise the House Advantage (Percentage) would be with the slots. For example ... Instrad of a 95% payback a casino could lower that payback to 85%.

How they accomplish that ... I don't know. Can those chips be changed overnight?

Is anyone aware if the Gaming Commission has any control over slot paybacks?

I recently had a brief discussion with a slot mechanic (a licensed, legal mechanic) and asked him if there was a central point within the casino where someone could push a button to reset the 'return percentage'.

He said, "No, but we are working towards the ability to do that!"

And another avid slot enthusiast told me that all the slot machines in the Aria casino are hooked up to a central location where such a 'button' exists right now.

Interesting stuff that I'd like to know more about.

But to get back to your question, I am not aware of any other casino game in which the payoffs have been significantly readjusted for the benefit of the house.

If you know differently, please advise so I can have another subject to complain about.

BTW.. they no longer check for ID's when entering the remodeled bar at Ellis Island. (Unless you look underage of course!)

Either the Commission changed the rules to check ID's regardless of age or they are in violation or just don't give a darn.

Personally.... I think that stupidity was overcome.

.

JMT, the following may be of interest to some of us TalkVegas fans ...

The Nevada Gaming Control Board breaks down its Las Vegas slot statistics by area and not by individual properties.

The areas are:

1. The Strip
2. Downtown
3. Boulder Strip
4. North Las Vegas

The annual gaming revenue report for the period beginning July 1, 2008 and ending June 30, 2009 is shown as follows: (Sorry but I cannot locate the up to date stats.)

Slot payback is the overall percentage that a machine will return to the player in the long run. These figures are programmed into the machines computer chip and are set by the manufacturer to the specifications that the casino wishes to use for that machine. This may be anywhere from 75 to 99 percent. Some states regulate the minimum payback that a machine can return

1¢ Slot Machines
The Strip - 88.35% payback
Downtown - 88.68% payback
Boulder Strip - 90.03% payback
N. Las Vegas - 90.69% payback

5¢ Slot Machines
The Strip - 89.23% payback
Downtown - 91.12% payback
Boulder Strip - 95.41% payback
N. Las Vegas - 94.81% payback

25¢ Slot Machines
The Strip - 91.93% payback
Downtown - 94.54% payback
Boulder Strip - 96.82% payback
N. Las Vegas - 96.44% payback

$1 Slot Machines
The Strip - 93.65% payback
Downtown -95.38% payback
Boulder Strip - 96.77% payback
N. Las Vegas - 96.89% payback

$1 Megabucks Machines
The Strip - 88.06% payback
Downtown - 89.04% payback
Boulder Strip - 90.77.48% payback
N. Las Vegas - 90.01% payback

$5 Slot Machines
The Strip - 94.84% payback
Downtown - 95.11% payback
Boulder Strip - 96.02% payback
N. Las Vegas - 94.75% payback

$25 Slot Machines
The Strip - 96.16% payback
Downtown - 96.38% payback
Boulder Strip - 95.42% payback
N. Las Vegas - N/A

All Slot Machines
The Strip - 92.98% payback
Downtown - 93.42% payback
Boulder Strip - 94.96% payback
N. Las Vegas - 94.36% payback

BUT you gotta remember this! These stats are computed over the long run and an hour or two of slot play a day is definitely not Long Run which complicates the use of stats to figure an individual's expected return percentage.

That is why most of us play for the fun of playing. And that is why slot machine manufactures are making games that are definitely more fun to play.

For example, I love those little Alien Moo Cow critters, while others prefer to follow Dorothy into the land of Oz or spin those globes in the newest Star Wars bandit.

Vodka martini with three olives, please!

Thanks for posting this.

I think I used to see this table in Casino Player magazine.

I found a couple of things very interesting. For some reason I always thought that all Megabucks machines had the same payout. Apparently not true.

The other thing was how close together the return was on all the denominations from 25 cent to $25 everywhere except the strip.

I wonder if this is an effect of video poker.

You are right about the alien cows.

E&E, Shhhh, don't tell anyone about ALIAN COWS! Someone just might come after you with a straight jacket.

But seriously .... it's been harder and harder to find an unused cow these days.

The word about how these little cows are paying off has gotten out and it's difficult to find a lonesome cow in a decent 'pasture'.

And that right 'pasture' is critical.


HINT: Look for a tree on the west side!

Confused?? ........... Good!!

That leaves those little, profitable critters free to play with me!!

And I usually leave them UTTERLY depleted with a bit of a thicker cowhide wallet.

Shhhhhhhh......

E&E, BTW ..... have you tried the 'adjacent forest' ???

Shhhhhh......

I recently found this bit of information ….. Reducing blackjack payouts from 3:2 to 6:5 adds a substantial 1.39% to the casino's advantage.

Now back to the subject at hand……

It is now apparent to me that a good number of ‘gamblers’ within any given casino have no idea how to play the casino games to their best advantage.

And a good number of those kind folk don’t even have the slightest clue of what to do while playing blackjack at $5 or $10 a hand.

Last evening I found myself at a table where four of the players had no idea how to play the game. Needless to say, they knew nothing about basic strategy and would often ask for my advice.

Should I hit this 13 with the dealer’s ace?
Should I stand on 12 with the dealers 4?
Should I split these aces?
How about these eights?
How about these 4’s?

And those were the smart players who were asking the right questions.

But there were others who weren’t even smart enough to ask. They just sat there silently made very bad decisions and watched their money fly away.

It was another learning experience about casino gamblers I hate to learn about …. but one of the gamblers who profited from my advice placed a $100 chip in my betting space and said, “Thank you!” as he headed off.

And also needless to say, I lost that bet before I could even say thanks in return.

Maybe one of you was/were at that table last nite, so just maybe the following very basic info may be somewhat eye-opening.

There are ten best bets to make in any given casino. The best of these best bets are those bets which offer the smallest house advantage.

I won’t go into the house advantage details here but the following is a list of the best casino games that have the lowest house edge and offer you a better chance to leave a winner.

1. Casino poker (Big advantage to knowledgeable players)
2. Blackjack (3 -2) with some counting knowledge. Advantage to plaer
3. Video poker (House edge in many cases is less than .5%)
4. Blackjack (Basic strategy) (House edge less than 1% if 3-2)
5. Craps Don’t Pass/Don’t Come (Edge 1.14% or .59% w/double odds
6. Craps Passline/Come (House edge 1.41% or .61% with double odds
7. Pai Gow Banker (?)
8. Baccarat Banker (House edge 1.06%)
9. Baccarat Player (House edge 1.24%)
10. Craps Place the 6 and 8 (House edge 1.52%)

Now if you want to play Keno ....

Rumors abound ..... Due to the apparent success of even money and 6-5 blackjack pay-offs along the Las Vegas Strip, some casino "experts" are saying that dealers will soon not bust if delt a 22.

If the dealers' cards add up to 22, the table will 'push' no matter what your hand totals. But players will still lose their bet if their hand total exceeds 21.

Rumor only at this time, but the above presently applies in the blackjack game called Switch.

Blackjack Switch has been around quite a while. I've never stopped to look and see what the attraction is and what you have to give up.

If you will look at the Aria website under casino, then table games, they proudly list Blackjack Switch as an available game.

Thanks, JMT!

I haven't looked at the website just yet yet, but I do think I saw "Switch" being offered at the Aria last weekend. and just about each of the LV casinos carry the game to the best of my recollection.

But in every case I personally witnessed, a blackjack is paid off at even-money and if the dealer draws '22', it's a 'push' all the way around except for those players who have already lost with a card total/count of 22 or more.

And don't be too surprised if all blackjack-game wannabees follow suit with that dealer/22/push method of giving you much less than what you rightfully deserve from a trustworthy casino.

I say "wannabees" because they are calling the game of blackjack something else in an effort to 'justify' the fact that you are actually paying the casino a part of your profit when you get a blackjack.